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  • Hatamoto & FFA Jeopardise Supporter Safety at Sydney Derby


    mack

    Hatamoto have gone against world best practice with their decision to hold back Western Sydney supporters at the conclusion of the first ever Sydney Derby.

     

    The move has sparked anger among the supporter group the Red & Black Bloc. It is against world-wide practice and will lead to confusion and potential safety issues. With the Derby being considered a 'high risk' match in terms of security and police arrangements the FFA's security agency Hatamoto have made a decision to keep the entire Wanderers active support bay inside the stadium for 30 minutes after the match.

     

    While the gates will not be locked, Hatamoto have advised the supporters that they will be labelled 'non-conformist' should they attempt to leave. The counter-terror security agency have threatened that supporters who leave the ground before Hatamoto desire them to will be targeted by their security. Hatamoto have indicated that even a minor 'offence' such as crossing a street without security approval could lead to being detained and/or being banned from A-League matches. There have also been threats made that jeopardise future supporter marches and other supporter group events. This is a grave insult to people who have put their hard earned money as well as their time and effort into this club, at such a vital time for the club.

     

    The decision has said to have been made due to 'logistics' reasons. The FFA believe that when the Wanderers win the match, the supporters in the Red & Black Bloc will prefer to stay inside the bay to celebrate rather than making their way to their home pub. The FFA have planned some minor events to take place during this 30 minute dead zone. Hatamoto will be stationing security guards to discourage people from moving about. It is also important to note that the Red & Black Bloc are located in an end that is not exclusively for active support. Only three of the bays are active support. It will mean Hatamoto guards will be preventing families, many with young children, from leaving the stadium on time. The Wanderers club have sided with their supporters and pushed for the away fans to stay inside the stadium but as the Wanderers only rent the stadium their hands are tied by the FFA, Stadium, Police and Hatamoto.

     

    Matt Adamson spent 4 years in a senior management position at one of Europe's leading crowd management companies. He has vast experience with contracts involving the largest clubs in the world and I asked for his thoughts on the issue of crowd control at football matches, "There are two common methods for safe egress of supporters at the conclusion of a football match that is deemed high risk. The first is to hold back away fans while the home fans disperse. This has been utilised previously at A-League fixtures in Newcastle, Melbourne & Gosford and is the standard procedure throughout Europe. The other method is to segregate fans via the use of designated entry/exit gates and temporary fencing to serve as a physical barrier.

     

    "I believe that the current position of Hatamoto and their recommendations for the management of the crowd at the Sydney derby are reflective of a skill-set that is not compatible with football. They ignore the passions and expectations of fans. It is ignorant of accepted traditions and widely accepted practices in managing football crowds safely.

     

    "Hatamoto is taking the opposite approach and attitude towards this fixture than what I observed during my time in European football. While I have no doubt that Hatamoto are experts in counter-terrorism, they have a lot to learn about football."

     

    A listing of matches, countries and leagues which follow the home supporters first doctrine would be endless. The doctrine is accepted best practice and is commonplace worldwide. Throughout all levels of league football, cup matches, derby, non-derby, continental and international matches away supporters are kept behind. This method is in practice for the A-League as well. Sydney FC supporters would already be expecting to stay behind for a period of time and many would have operated under the condition in previous away matches such as those in Gosford, Newcastle and Melbourne. In general the vast majority of away supporters at a match will be in the away bays and they will stick together until they leave the stadium. Home supporters could be in many different stands even if they come to the stadium as a group, and locking in groups of home supporters will mean people hanging around the stadium waiting for the rest of their group. Keeping away fans in their bay enables security to spend more time preparing for the exit of the away supporters as well as enabling potentially aggressive supporters of the home team to be pushed away from the stadium.

     

    Western Sydney Supporters spokesman Sean Herrett spoke to WestSydneyFootball.Com about the situation, "The Parramatta police are not sure what to expect. They are not football educated. The Chief Inspector of Parramatta LAC was unaware of the practice of away supporters being kept in their bays after the match. The officer who was in charge for the first round match is no longer involved and appears not to have passed on any knowledge and information to the replacement officer."

     

    This turn of events is disappointing for supporters of football in Australia. Active support groups have spent years trying to educate the police and security forces in regards to the best way to enable safe active support and the safe exit of supporters regardless of what team they followed. While the A-League is being advertised by the slogan 'We Are Football' it is necessary to remind those who 'are not yet football' what the best practices are in situations that crop up dozens of times every year in world football. Over zealous security and police responses have a chilling effect on the active support culture that enables football to generate atmosphere unmatched by any other code of sport in Australia. It is up to the police and security to get educated and to listen to supporter groups and those with experience in football crowd management. With Melbourne Victory advising their fans not to travel to 'high risk' matches due to over zealous security treatment, as well as police brutality against Sydney United supporters in a Wanderers pre-season fixture, it is clear that security and police forces have yet to truly understand active support culture. NSW Police, and the Parramatta Local Area Command in particular have shown a desire to become educated and to understand the situation to enable safe conduct for all parties in regards to Western Sydney Wanderers matches. Hatamoto has not.

     

    Hatamoto are still refusing to engage with football supporters and are failing to educate their own leadership about football culture. Such issues have been raised as long as Hatamoto have been involved with the A-League. In 2009 Hatamoto were exposed for attempting to infiltrate supporters groups with undercover security guards. In 2011 questions were raised as to why a counter-terrorism company would be involved with football as well what qualifications the leaders of Hatamoto had to dictate security procedures for football matches.

     

    Sean Herrett talked about his dealings with Hatamoto, "I personally spoke with Peter Shepherd from Hatamoto. Mr Shepherd is aware of our anger over the situation, but has dismissed our concerns due to his experience over the past 5 years in dealing with A-League supporter groups. Mr Shepherd also refused to continue with direct dialogue and instead demanded all discussion to go through middlemen at the FFA."

     

    When the security group are the only group unwilling to directly discuss the situation with the supporters group, can anyone blame the supporter groups for their distrust of Hatamoto? Hatamoto work to stereotype and exaggerate the 'threat' that supporters group have to the A-League brand and the safety of other patrons to A-League matches. Hatamoto are the only group who must continually justify their existence and input into the A-League. The police have a duty to the public. The FFA run the competition. The supporters want to support their team and watch the matches. The players play in these matches. The club participate in the competition. If Hatamoto cannot justify their existence in the A-League they will lose their lucrative contracts. In a way it makes sense that they would refuse to engage. By refusing to engage it enables them to suggest to the FFA that their job will never be complete and to avoid humanising their 'targets'. The problem is that refusal to engage puts the supporters at risk of over-zealous security guards.

     

    In the first round match against the Central Coast Mariners the only piece of crowd trouble came from a group of people not from the Red & Black Bloc. They had tickets and/or memberships for the section of the ground next to the away bay. Should they desire to cause trouble again they could cause a major problem by attacking Sydney FC fans who are let out at the same time as they are, while the security is focused on keeping the Red & Black Bloc penned inside the home end.

     

    The obvious solution is holding the Sydney FC fans in their bay as per standard worldwide practice so that all Western Sydney Wanderers supporters can disperse and leave the vicinity of the stadium. 30 minutes later this would be followed by police and security escorting the Sydney FC fans to Parramatta Station. Instead Hatamoto have decided on a patch-work solution that will only exacerbate the potential for trouble instead of reducing it.

     

    Football Federation Australia must remember that it is not Peter Shepherd and Hatamoto who run football in Australia or the A-League. It is Frank Lowy, Ben Buckley and Damien de Bohun. They must remind themselves that the reason they run football is for the supporters of the game, not for the bank balance of a secretive counter-terrorist security company looking for their next contract.

     

    The Western Sydney Wanderers, Football Federation Australia, Hatamoto, the Red & Black Bloc and NSW Police are still in negotiations to determine the final security arrangements and we hope to bring positive news on that front.

     

    The Sydney Derby will be played at 7:45pm on Saturday the 20th of October at Parramatta Stadium. The match has sold out to the general public. Membership and Corporate tickets are still available but in limited numbers.


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    Benched

    Posted

    I was in Adelaide last weekend and saw quite a few run ins. Amongst 8900 people :shok:

     

    The RBB might be the active support group, if WSW fans from elsewhere in the stadium cause problems its not your problem or duty, it's the job of the club to sort out fans who are misbehaving. If RBB self polices, then you will be fine. The club suffers from bad behaviour of its fans, naturally, but I am sure the misbehaving fans will never be from RBB.

     

    That's our point. Let everyone disperse except the Cove, and there will be no drama's.

    It's the most common sense thing to do.

    montywoodpeg

    Posted

    W Plains wtf is the point of that comment.

     

    So that justifies Hatamoto releasing an entire stadium of WSW fans alongside the Cove.

     

    To be honest, if I was in the Cove now, I'd be a bit concerned.

     

    As a non RBB member I am concerned about leaving the same time as the cove.

    I believe everyone, Cove fans, Sydney FC fans elsewhere in the stadium, RBB fans, Wanderer fans elsewhere in the stadium, will all be behaved enough. Everyone does the right thing, security stand around just with not a lot to do, they'll downgrade the "emergency" for next game. It's the best way to rectify this game situation whether it be right or wrong. It's up to all us fans to prove security wrong by not making any troubles.

     

    No one in the Cove is worried. They all want to go to the game, enjoy the experience, then head off. I'm sure RBB are the same.

     

    My friend and I, members seated in bay 66, are not aggressive people at all. The main problem I forsee, is from the people who just can't help but heckle opposition supporters.

     

    When I'll be leaving the game on saturday night, I'll be feeding out through the narrow halls behind the terrace bays toward the North East exits A&B. The very same route to be taken by the active away supporters. What concerns me is the tight corridor with mixed home and away supporters, combined with alcohol, all feeding out the same exits.

     

    It only takes one idiot to push the boundaries, which could arc up opposition supporters and vice versa to start something between two groups.

     

    A problem we have, is that we can't communicate well with these potential fools, since it's not as likely they would be a member of the RBB or this forum. They may well not be the people who follow football like many of us do at every opportunity.

    A prime example would have to be the known small group who picked out seats close to the CCM supporters just to heckle them, then continued to be a problem all night. These people aren't part of our community.

    Kensworth

    Posted (edited)

    :good: Edited by Kensworth
    CaptGrumpy

    Posted

    While I understand the concerns from the RBB members, my suggestion is for the RBB to be compliant with the security. That way the finger cannot be pointed at you should anything untoward happen. No doubt there will be the potential for the dickhead factor in the rest of the crowd. But that isn't your concern, you worry about the RBB, let the police and security worry about the rest. If they get it wrong, then that's their problem.

    Davo

    Posted (edited)

    While I understand the concerns from the RBB members, my suggestion is for the RBB to be compliant with the security. That way the finger cannot be pointed at you should anything untoward happen. No doubt there will be the potential for the dickhead factor in the rest of the crowd. But that isn't your concern, you worry about the RBB, let the police and security worry about the rest. If they get it wrong, then that's their problem.

     

    You're 100% right that we shouldn't be causing problems for security. The problem is that none of the people on this forum are the people I'm worried about. Any issues that the club have had so far have had absolutely nothing to do with the RBB.

     

    It'll still damage the club even if these random morons aren't part of the RBB. That's why Hatamoto's brainwave doesn't make sense.

    Edited by Davo
    montywoodpeg

    Posted

    While I understand the concerns from the RBB members, my suggestion is for the RBB to be compliant with the security. That way the finger cannot be pointed at you should anything untoward happen. No doubt there will be the potential for the dickhead factor in the rest of the crowd. But that isn't your concern, you worry about the RBB, let the police and security worry about the rest. If they get it wrong, then that's their problem.

     

    I'm not a member of the RBB, nor will any other of the supporters be who are exiting at the same time, through the same corridors and exits as SFC supporters, but more significantly, the SFC active support. As such, I don't think it's enough to say the RBB simply keep their noses clean and turn a blind eye to the situation, because anything that happens will just reflect badly on Hatamoto.

     

    If we put aside the personal safety of supporters from both sides, there is the reputation of both our clubs and the whole code on the line, the precedent was set in preseason (if not in the decades preceding). This is the club that we support, and we can't stand back, wash our hands of any issues and expect Hatamoto to take the blame trying to say "I told you so".

     

    I'm arguably overstating this, but if negative events to transpire, I do believe there could be material to affect our club during a period we are both recovering, and building our foundations for years to come.

    CaptGrumpy

    Posted

    There is a philosophy in problem solving that says the first question you should ask when trying to solve a problem is "Is this my problem to solve?" The answer here is no. The problem belongs to the club, Hatamoto, police and the FFA. While it is admirable of the fans to be concerned about all of those things you rightly bring up, the simple answer is, it's not our problem. Our problem is what do with the situation presented to us.

     

    For what its worth, I agree, it's not the smartest decision. And I hope that there are no problems, all for the reasons that you give. It would be a shame for the positive vibe for the A-League to be undone by a few dickheads and a bad decision by the powers that be.

    Suislide

    Posted

    In Argentina the home fans are kept in the stadium for about 30 - 40 minutes while the away fans are moved out. It's not unprecedented

    montywoodpeg

    Posted

    There is a philosophy in problem solving that says the first question you should ask when trying to solve a problem is "Is this my problem to solve?" The answer here is no. The problem belongs to the club, Hatamoto, police and the FFA. While it is admirable of the fans to be concerned about all of those things you rightly bring up, the simple answer is, it's not our problem. Our problem is what do with the situation presented to us.

     

    For what its worth, I agree, it's not the smartest decision. And I hope that there are no problems, all for the reasons that you give. It would be a shame for the positive vibe for the A-League to be undone by a few dickheads and a bad decision by the powers that be.

     

    I must say, very well articulated point.

     

    I must certainly agree, we must all abstain from any physical aggression (as I expect all of those on here to do anyway), that is something we can be directly responsible for.

     

    The problem solving question of whether it is our problem to solve isn't as easy an answer, in my view. My experience in a workplace has told me that as long as you wear the uniform, you represent the company. By this principal, as long as we show the colours of WSW, we are representing the club. While this is again reiterating my point above that we must behave on game day, it's what also gives me investment in the club, and while we can't directly influence Hatamoto, our collective voice can (hopefully) indirectly encourage them to reconsider their current stance, which can protect the individuals as well as the club.

    CaptGrumpy

    Posted

    Absolutely Monty. It doesn't mean we don't try to make the point to the club, police etc.

    montywoodpeg

    Posted

    Absolutely Monty. It doesn't mean we don't try to make the point to the club, police etc.

     

    Right, I'm glad we're making the same point. :drinks:

    Pup55

    Posted

    positive

    when the cove are sulking off to their train, and a wanderers fan puts sh*t on them, and a fight starts outside the ground, the RBB won't be blamed.

     

    negatives

    everything else.

     

    i can't believe what i just read :rofl:

     

     

    i reckon, if rules stay as are and they do actually keep us locked in, we just keep singing and chanting, taking the p*ss out of the Sydney FC fans getting an escort from the Cops and Hatamoto, and Hatamoto and the police themselves.

     

    We're not going home!

    We're not going home!

    We're not going,

    We're not going,

    We're not going home!

     

    We can see you,

    We can see you,

    We can see you sneaking out,

    We can see you sneaking out...

    http://fanchants.co....ee-you-arsenal/

     

     

    We don't need no police protection,

    We don't need no ground control,

    Hey Dibble HATAMOTO,

    Leave those kids the RBB alone :xnod:

    http://fanchants.co.uk/football-songs/manchester_city-chants/hey-dibble/

    Trojan

    Posted

    There wasn't any trouble with Sydney and Newcastle fans after the game on the weekend. The reason measures like this are happening is because the Wanderers fans have not had the chance to prove their good behaviour yet. Sydney FC fans are known to be reasonably behaved and its a trust thats been built up over quite a few years. You will earn the same trust in a few years but because of the *unknown* factor and the scares of the silliness of the pre-season, its a sad but maybe sensible decision.

     

    Blah blah blah we all know eastern suburbs hakoah del piero fc fans are brown noses and snitches..

     

    MarcelFC

    Posted

    positive

    when the cove are sulking off to their train, and a wanderers fan puts sh*t on them, and a fight starts outside the ground, the RBB won't be blamed.

     

    negatives

    everything else.

     

    i can't believe what i just read :rofl:

     

     

    i reckon, if rules stay as are and they do actually keep us locked in, we just keep singing and chanting, taking the p*ss out of the Sydney FC fans getting an escort from the Cops and Hatamoto, and Hatamoto and the police themselves.

     

    We're not going home!

    We're not going home!

    We're not going,

    We're not going,

    We're not going home!

     

    We can see you,

    We can see you,

    We can see you sneaking out,

    We can see you sneaking out...

    http://fanchants.co....ee-you-arsenal/

     

     

    We don't need no police protection,

    We don't need no ground control,

    Hey Dibble HATAMOTO,

    Leave those kids the RBB alone :xnod:

    http://fanchants.co.uk/football-songs/manchester_city-chants/hey-dibble/

     

    Love the last chant

    Chaopescado

    Posted

    To all the people saying if there is any trouble and the RBB aren't involved, then it's not our problem, need to wake up!

    If anything stupid does happen, it's then a problem for football, the aleague, the teams, players and supporters. We've already seen the media will take any negative and bash our sport. It would detract from what will be a historic occasion for football in this country. It will mean over zealous security for future matches, affect tv rights negotiations, corporate backers, the list goes on.

    The point is, this is a stupid decision that could have potential ramifications for all football fans in Australia.

    Burztur

    Posted

    The first point which I raised is still not answered...

     

    Trouble makers can simply not sit in the Active Support areas. Is Hatamoto going to lock out everyone but the away supporters for 30 minutes?

     

    Either way, if there is a screw up, it should be on Hatamoto. We should encourage the FFA to look for a new security provider. Given that Hatamoto don't adopt international standards that should be reason enough. I'm sure we can find another provider who can do the job and conform with best practice.

    Kraken

    Posted

    GET WITH THE TIMES HATAMOTO!!!

     

    If trouble does occur it will reflect poorley on WSW supporters, Hatamoto wont accept any blame and they will just call for higher security measures. The Club and the FFA need to step in. Unfortunatley Gallop has never had this issue before, but if Hatamoto are even suggesting just to hold the RBB back then their contract should not be renewed.

     

    There will be more Red and Black on Saturday then Blue, I doubt the bandwagoners willl travel. Let the **** out first.

    marron

    Posted

    I wonder if this means as well that they will shut the gate between the end bays and the bays on the corner which are still GA (bay 58, 59 etc)? How else will they keep the end bays in at the end of the match?

    Benched

    Posted

    Guy's, from my understanding, no one will be forced to stay.

     

    No gates will be locked etc etc.

     

    They will frown upon anyone in the home end leaving early though, and it will 'ear mark' us as non conformist.

     

    @Burztr they are only requesting the home end is held back. That's the biggest problem. The random WSW supporter with an axe to grind from the Eastern GrandStand being released with the smurfs.

    Kraken

    Posted (edited)

    Well if the RBB isnt going to be Held back, then they shouldn't stay back, march with all the other supporters and set the example, stop any rouges from stepping out of line?
    Edited by Kraken
    Jowel

    Posted

    Sounds like Hatamoto are just waiting for an excuse to label us non-conformist. And their attitude is likely to make this happen sooner rather than later.

     

    It keeps them in the job i guess.

    Montalbano

    Posted

    Just use common sense. If the majority set the example of avoiding any conflicts, than the minority thugs and troublemakers will be weeded out when they try to start something. There are police there to deal with those guys, so let the law punish them.

    marron

    Posted

    So.... they are basically just asking the home end to stay behind? They won't lock the gates? But then if people take into consideration what they have been asked and decide to leave anyway... Hatamoto are going to react by "labelling" these people "non-conformist"? WIll this labelling be down with a baton or by detaining?

     

    This is asking for trouble. ...

    FairPlay

    Posted

    What a bloody disgrace. Standard practice is to hold back the away supporters. Anything other than that simply shows the lack of understanding of the circumstances. The fukers are only igniting the situation to substantiate their existence.

     

    Hatamoto = scum of the earth and the enemy of football!

     

    FP

    marron

    Posted

    Sounds like Hatamoto are just waiting for an excuse to label us non-conformist. And they're attitude is likely to make this happen sooner rather than later.

     

    It keeps them in the job i guess.

     

    You're allowed to leave! Just if you leave we nab you. WTF is that? If they don't want people to leave then just lock the gates... what a ridiculous half-arsed solution. This will create trouble. And as you say, give them (and the press) the chance to say, football = trouble and their presence will just be doubled next time.

    Montalbano

    Posted

    So.... they are basically just asking the home end to stay behind? They won't lock the gates? But then if people take into consideration what they have been asked and decide to leave anyway... Hatamoto are going to react by "labelling" these people "non-conformist"? WIll this labelling be down with a baton or by detaining?

     

    This is asking for trouble. ...

     

    I don't see the big deal for the first time. Later on they can relax it a bit.

    azzurri

    Posted

    Hatamoto are the biggest cause of tension/agression in the a-league, more than any other supporter group

    marron

    Posted

    Aside from whether or not keeping the home fans behind is a good idea or not, if they are going to do it they need to do it. Not ask people to do it but then treat those that don't as criminals.

    Montalbano

    Posted

    Aside from whether or not keeping the home fans behind is a good idea or not, if they are going to do it they need to do it. Not ask people to do it but then treat those that don't as criminals.

     

    True. It would be a good idea to co-operate in this situation in my opinion. Show some goodwill. It will be easier next time.

    dongle

    Posted

    wtf are we goiong to do for 30 mins, will the bar be open? lol




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