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  • Hatamoto & FFA Jeopardise Supporter Safety at Sydney Derby


    mack

    Hatamoto have gone against world best practice with their decision to hold back Western Sydney supporters at the conclusion of the first ever Sydney Derby.

     

    The move has sparked anger among the supporter group the Red & Black Bloc. It is against world-wide practice and will lead to confusion and potential safety issues. With the Derby being considered a 'high risk' match in terms of security and police arrangements the FFA's security agency Hatamoto have made a decision to keep the entire Wanderers active support bay inside the stadium for 30 minutes after the match.

     

    While the gates will not be locked, Hatamoto have advised the supporters that they will be labelled 'non-conformist' should they attempt to leave. The counter-terror security agency have threatened that supporters who leave the ground before Hatamoto desire them to will be targeted by their security. Hatamoto have indicated that even a minor 'offence' such as crossing a street without security approval could lead to being detained and/or being banned from A-League matches. There have also been threats made that jeopardise future supporter marches and other supporter group events. This is a grave insult to people who have put their hard earned money as well as their time and effort into this club, at such a vital time for the club.

     

    The decision has said to have been made due to 'logistics' reasons. The FFA believe that when the Wanderers win the match, the supporters in the Red & Black Bloc will prefer to stay inside the bay to celebrate rather than making their way to their home pub. The FFA have planned some minor events to take place during this 30 minute dead zone. Hatamoto will be stationing security guards to discourage people from moving about. It is also important to note that the Red & Black Bloc are located in an end that is not exclusively for active support. Only three of the bays are active support. It will mean Hatamoto guards will be preventing families, many with young children, from leaving the stadium on time. The Wanderers club have sided with their supporters and pushed for the away fans to stay inside the stadium but as the Wanderers only rent the stadium their hands are tied by the FFA, Stadium, Police and Hatamoto.

     

    Matt Adamson spent 4 years in a senior management position at one of Europe's leading crowd management companies. He has vast experience with contracts involving the largest clubs in the world and I asked for his thoughts on the issue of crowd control at football matches, "There are two common methods for safe egress of supporters at the conclusion of a football match that is deemed high risk. The first is to hold back away fans while the home fans disperse. This has been utilised previously at A-League fixtures in Newcastle, Melbourne & Gosford and is the standard procedure throughout Europe. The other method is to segregate fans via the use of designated entry/exit gates and temporary fencing to serve as a physical barrier.

     

    "I believe that the current position of Hatamoto and their recommendations for the management of the crowd at the Sydney derby are reflective of a skill-set that is not compatible with football. They ignore the passions and expectations of fans. It is ignorant of accepted traditions and widely accepted practices in managing football crowds safely.

     

    "Hatamoto is taking the opposite approach and attitude towards this fixture than what I observed during my time in European football. While I have no doubt that Hatamoto are experts in counter-terrorism, they have a lot to learn about football."

     

    A listing of matches, countries and leagues which follow the home supporters first doctrine would be endless. The doctrine is accepted best practice and is commonplace worldwide. Throughout all levels of league football, cup matches, derby, non-derby, continental and international matches away supporters are kept behind. This method is in practice for the A-League as well. Sydney FC supporters would already be expecting to stay behind for a period of time and many would have operated under the condition in previous away matches such as those in Gosford, Newcastle and Melbourne. In general the vast majority of away supporters at a match will be in the away bays and they will stick together until they leave the stadium. Home supporters could be in many different stands even if they come to the stadium as a group, and locking in groups of home supporters will mean people hanging around the stadium waiting for the rest of their group. Keeping away fans in their bay enables security to spend more time preparing for the exit of the away supporters as well as enabling potentially aggressive supporters of the home team to be pushed away from the stadium.

     

    Western Sydney Supporters spokesman Sean Herrett spoke to WestSydneyFootball.Com about the situation, "The Parramatta police are not sure what to expect. They are not football educated. The Chief Inspector of Parramatta LAC was unaware of the practice of away supporters being kept in their bays after the match. The officer who was in charge for the first round match is no longer involved and appears not to have passed on any knowledge and information to the replacement officer."

     

    This turn of events is disappointing for supporters of football in Australia. Active support groups have spent years trying to educate the police and security forces in regards to the best way to enable safe active support and the safe exit of supporters regardless of what team they followed. While the A-League is being advertised by the slogan 'We Are Football' it is necessary to remind those who 'are not yet football' what the best practices are in situations that crop up dozens of times every year in world football. Over zealous security and police responses have a chilling effect on the active support culture that enables football to generate atmosphere unmatched by any other code of sport in Australia. It is up to the police and security to get educated and to listen to supporter groups and those with experience in football crowd management. With Melbourne Victory advising their fans not to travel to 'high risk' matches due to over zealous security treatment, as well as police brutality against Sydney United supporters in a Wanderers pre-season fixture, it is clear that security and police forces have yet to truly understand active support culture. NSW Police, and the Parramatta Local Area Command in particular have shown a desire to become educated and to understand the situation to enable safe conduct for all parties in regards to Western Sydney Wanderers matches. Hatamoto has not.

     

    Hatamoto are still refusing to engage with football supporters and are failing to educate their own leadership about football culture. Such issues have been raised as long as Hatamoto have been involved with the A-League. In 2009 Hatamoto were exposed for attempting to infiltrate supporters groups with undercover security guards. In 2011 questions were raised as to why a counter-terrorism company would be involved with football as well what qualifications the leaders of Hatamoto had to dictate security procedures for football matches.

     

    Sean Herrett talked about his dealings with Hatamoto, "I personally spoke with Peter Shepherd from Hatamoto. Mr Shepherd is aware of our anger over the situation, but has dismissed our concerns due to his experience over the past 5 years in dealing with A-League supporter groups. Mr Shepherd also refused to continue with direct dialogue and instead demanded all discussion to go through middlemen at the FFA."

     

    When the security group are the only group unwilling to directly discuss the situation with the supporters group, can anyone blame the supporter groups for their distrust of Hatamoto? Hatamoto work to stereotype and exaggerate the 'threat' that supporters group have to the A-League brand and the safety of other patrons to A-League matches. Hatamoto are the only group who must continually justify their existence and input into the A-League. The police have a duty to the public. The FFA run the competition. The supporters want to support their team and watch the matches. The players play in these matches. The club participate in the competition. If Hatamoto cannot justify their existence in the A-League they will lose their lucrative contracts. In a way it makes sense that they would refuse to engage. By refusing to engage it enables them to suggest to the FFA that their job will never be complete and to avoid humanising their 'targets'. The problem is that refusal to engage puts the supporters at risk of over-zealous security guards.

     

    In the first round match against the Central Coast Mariners the only piece of crowd trouble came from a group of people not from the Red & Black Bloc. They had tickets and/or memberships for the section of the ground next to the away bay. Should they desire to cause trouble again they could cause a major problem by attacking Sydney FC fans who are let out at the same time as they are, while the security is focused on keeping the Red & Black Bloc penned inside the home end.

     

    The obvious solution is holding the Sydney FC fans in their bay as per standard worldwide practice so that all Western Sydney Wanderers supporters can disperse and leave the vicinity of the stadium. 30 minutes later this would be followed by police and security escorting the Sydney FC fans to Parramatta Station. Instead Hatamoto have decided on a patch-work solution that will only exacerbate the potential for trouble instead of reducing it.

     

    Football Federation Australia must remember that it is not Peter Shepherd and Hatamoto who run football in Australia or the A-League. It is Frank Lowy, Ben Buckley and Damien de Bohun. They must remind themselves that the reason they run football is for the supporters of the game, not for the bank balance of a secretive counter-terrorist security company looking for their next contract.

     

    The Western Sydney Wanderers, Football Federation Australia, Hatamoto, the Red & Black Bloc and NSW Police are still in negotiations to determine the final security arrangements and we hope to bring positive news on that front.

     

    The Sydney Derby will be played at 7:45pm on Saturday the 20th of October at Parramatta Stadium. The match has sold out to the general public. Membership and Corporate tickets are still available but in limited numbers.


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    Burztur

    Posted

    snapback.pngNorWester, on , said:

     

     

    snapback.pngBurztur, on , said:

     

    I cant wait till the Sydney FC home game when these principles are applied to the other side...

    LOL they won't be.

     

    i think he was being sarcastic..we all know at the 2nd derby at SFS that us wanderers fans will be held back

     

    Yes. I was being sarcastic. That just reinforces how out of line this decision is.

     

    It is an insult to the fans - being treated 2nd class.

    furns

    Posted

    Just to correct some misinformation, this isnt the first time this plan has been used.

    Last two seasons at Bluetongue Stadium the Jets support have been let go at fulltime while the "Yellow Army" has supposedly been kept inside for 20 minutes.

    Each time it has been a cluster****. The active support crews are not the issue, they know not to get a bad name on themselves by openly goading or engaging each other. Its random wankers that tend to bait and pick fights with away fans as they head to the train station.

    Llama

    Posted

    Well said Mack.

     

    **** everyone who is spitting on the RBB.

    Fenerli

    Posted (edited)

    • This isn't practice in the A-League. The practice is keeping away fans. Not home fans.

     

     

    Incorrect.

     

    Melbourne Heart fans have been kept in at every derby match in Melbourne. Whether Home or Away. Same thing used to happen for Gold Coast fans in past seasons when they played the Roar and happens at Mariners games against the Jets, as Furns pointed out above.

     

    Not saying it works or is a effective, but to say it isn't practice at other clubs is incorrect & shows ignorance on the topic.

    Edited by Fenerli
    BigDukes

    Posted

    were there any gold coast fans to keep back?

    Kraken

    Posted

    were there any gold coast fans to keep back?

    LOL

    Borogz

    Posted

    were there any gold coast fans to keep back?

     

    On that....I forgot to mention from the first game, I think the club got a bunch of their gear. I saw a box with their logo on it for the centre circle piece.

     

    (I know not relevant to this thread)

    Benched

    Posted

    Boy's, I just want to add.

     

    The club is being very open with me and we have continual dialogue trying to rectify this situation.

     

    This is not the club forcing the issue. Believe me.

    Jowel

    Posted

    By the way, this issue has made it in the SMH today:

     

    http://www.smh.com.a...1017-27rie.html

     

    Meanwhile, members of Western Sydney Wanderers supporter group, the Red and Black Bloc, will be kept inside the stadium for approximately half an hour after the game as part of security measures.

    The move is unusual in the A-League as away teams are more commonly held back as a means to separate rival fan groups. However, Hatamoto, the company in charge of the match-day security is understood to have made the recommendation in conjunction with Football Federation Australia.

    ''As part of that plan, there will be a staged exit from Parramatta Stadium,'' an FFA spokesman said. ''That means the Wanderers' active supporter group, the Red and Black Bloc, will be asked to remain in the venue for a short period to allow the orderly departure of the Sydney FC active supporter group.

    ''We won't discuss the detail, but I can assure everyone the arrangements are based on best practice in Australia and overseas.''

    Police from Parramatta Local Area Command said they would not be closing any streets around the stadium to facilitate the sell-out crowd and told the Herald that they will be on the look-out for jay walkers disrupting traffic.

    mack

    Posted

    • This isn't practice in the A-League. The practice is keeping away fans. Not home fans.

     

     

    Incorrect.

     

    Melbourne Heart fans have been kept in at every derby match in Melbourne. Whether Home or Away

     

    Wrong.

     

     

    Skip to 3:15

     

    Not saying it works or is a effective, but to say it isn't practice at other clubs is incorrect & shows ignorance on the topic.

     

    We might very well say the same of you after viewing the video included in the topic.

    julyaugustreno

    Posted

    Benched can you ask Hatamoto to keep both the Cove and the RBB locked inside Parramatta Stadium, and not let us out until we've shaken hands and become friends?

    efcso

    Posted

    Boy's, I just want to add.

     

    The club is being very open with me and we have continual dialogue trying to rectify this situation.

     

    This is not the club forcing the issue. Believe me.

     

    Great to see the dialogue is continuing.

     

    I'd just like to add my 20 cents worth as a parent and non-RBB member.

     

    To be honest, I don't know that I'm going to be feeling too safe leaving the stadium and heading off to my transport option of choice with me and my teenage boys, in all our WSW-shirted glory, surrounded by (or even in close proximity to) the ESFC active support. I know I'm not alone in this.

     

    A half-hour head start would suit me a lot better.

    mltezr

    Posted

    i dunno about the club in this instance.

    it seems like the ffa have the power to tell hamamoto to get screwed and do it the other way, and this is the same ffa that own our club (who apparently want to do the right thing by us). doesnt make sense

    Benched

    Posted

    Because of the classification of the match, most of the decision making around this is taken off the club.

    It's then left to HATAMOTO and the local Police, in consultation with Stadium management.

    You have to remember, we are a tenant of the Stadium so they actually have a lot of say in how the crowd control is coordinated.

    Further, HATAMOTO, as the FFA's security consultant's, and Police basically call the shots from a public order/ safety perspective. They don't give a rats about tradition etc.

    That to me though is where it's all a bit perplexing.

    As Efcso said, a lot of people will be walking around in WSW gear whilst 4000 drunken Covites are released. Also, as seen last week, random's from anywhere in the stadium can start trouble. The RBB is the most unlikely source because we know we are heavily scrutinised.

    I can say the plan is for the Cove to exit from the corner near the swimming pools, and basically frog marched straight to the station. They won't be allowed to stop for a beer anywhere. They basically have to get out of Parra asap.

     

    Anyway, nothing is set in stone yet, so let's not get our knickers in a knot. Remember, it's also a voluntary request. We won't be 'locked' in etc. If you need to go, go.

    Ragey

    Posted

    i dunno about the club in this instance.

    it seems like the ffa have the power to tell hamamoto to get screwed and do it the other way, and this is the same ffa that own our club (who apparently want to do the right thing by us). doesnt make sense

     

    Agreed. I like many others are insulted by Haotomoto at the moment. We get held back.... ALOT of respect lost for the FFA and the Club.

     

    Because of the classification of the match, most of the decision making around this is taken off the club.

    It's then left to HATAMOTO and the local Police, in consultation with Stadium management.

    You have to remember, we are a tenant of the Stadium so they actually have a lot of say in how the crowd control is coordinated.

    Further, HATAMOTO, as the FFA's security consultant's, and Police basically call the shots from a public order/ safety perspective. They don't give a rats about tradition etc.

    That to me though is where it's all a bit perplexing.

    As Efcso said, a lot of people will be walking around in WSW gear whilst 4000 drunken Covites are released. Also, as seen last week, random's from anywhere in the stadium can start trouble. The RBB is the most unlikely source because we know we are heavily scrutinised.

    I can say the plan is for the Cove to exit from the corner near the swimming pools, and basically frog marched straight to the station. They won't be allowed to stop for a beer anywhere. They basically have to get out of Parra asap.

     

    Anyway, nothing is set in stone yet, so let's not get our knickers in a knot. Remember, it's also a voluntary request. We won't be 'locked' in etc. If you need to go, go.

     

    Then we all 'go' together once the match is over.

    Erebus

    Posted

    Last game we were the last ones to leave the stadium because we didn't stop chanting until one secco told us it was time to leave.

    I have a feeling it will be the same this week also. Especially after we win.

    BigDukes

    Posted

    yeah who knows guys..whilst its insult, end of the day im not going to let it ruin the amount of respect and positive publicity we have gained.

     

    who knows, maybe it might be a blessing in disguise? maybe letting the sydney fans out first will lead to them doing something stupid and getting bad press

     

    i dont know - thats the only positive spin i can put on it

    Burztur

    Posted

     

    As Efcso said, a lot of people will be walking around in WSW gear whilst 4000 drunken Covites are released. Also, as seen last week, random's from anywhere in the stadium can start trouble. The RBB is the most unlikely source because we know we are heavily scrutinised.

    I can say the plan is for the Cove to exit from the corner near the swimming pools, and basically frog marched straight to the station. They won't be allowed to stop for a beer anywhere. They basically have to get out of Parra asap.

     

    The first point is a concern. The second one is positive.

     

    That being said, the Covites are also well behaved (as people keep on trying to point out).

     

    It is the trouble makers from SFC and WSW who will make a mess of the situation.

     

    How does holding the RBB back overcome that problem?

    1988banana

    Posted

    Benched can you ask Hatamoto to keep both the Cove and the RBB locked inside Parramatta Stadium, and not let us out until we've shaken hands and become friends?

    Blood bath lol hahahaha

    Sub

    Posted

    yeah who knows guys..whilst its insult, end of the day im not going to let it ruin the amount of respect and positive publicity we have gained.

     

    who knows, maybe it might be a blessing in disguise? maybe letting the sydney fans out first will lead to them doing something stupid and getting bad press

     

    i dont know - thats the only positive spin i can put on it

     

    TBH even though that would be funny and all, it wouldn't do much to help the A-League. It would be more helpful if a Parramatta Eels fan popped out of the bushes and mowed the Smurfs down with an AK47 though.

    elchapo

    Posted

    I reckon there might be Hatamoto stooges on this site not posting but just here to get info

    Benched

    Posted

    Their thinking is they'd like to get the ESFC supporters out, with a full police escort, so they can't stop anywhere except the train station.

     

    They also had concerns that if all of us are in the Pub when the Cove is escorted past, well, recipe for a blue.

     

    Seriously guys, the club doesn't want to insult us. They are extremely happy with our group.

     

    Police and HATAMOTO, well they are a different story. The crap I've had to listen to is quite amusing.

     

    However, as Erebus said, we all hung around chanting last time.

    I think it would be quite funny to have a witty little chant for the Cove as their protectors escort them to the station.

     

    I reckon there might be Hatamoto stooges on this site not posting but just here to get info

     

    sure is.

    Sub

    Posted

    I reckon there might be Hatamoto stooges on this site not posting but just here to get info

     

    ****, don't they have anything better to do than sitting around reading the forums all day?

    1988banana

    Posted

    Just to correct some misinformation, this isnt the first time this plan has been used.

    Last two seasons at Bluetongue Stadium the Jets support have been let go at fulltime while the "Yellow Army" has supposedly been kept inside for 20 minutes.

    Each time it has been a cluster****. The active support crews are not the issue, they know not to get a bad name on themselves by openly goading or engaging each other. Its random wankers that tend to bait and pick fights with away fans as they head to the train station.

    Hahahahaha the pigs held back " the mighty yellow army " LOL what 20 ppl..... Hahahahahaa , an whats that someone wrote , the pigs even held back the gold coast fans LOL from what????? All the empty chairs

    LOL , this is all a bunch of B.S **** the police n matamoto an the eastern smurfs!!!!!

    Suislide

    Posted

    If we cop it sweet and stay the extra 30 minutes and there is no trouble than hatamoto will say their strategy worked.

     

    If we attempt to leave and there is any trouble whatsoever (not to mention the inevitable confrontation with hatamoto) blame will be placed squarely at our feet, not their obvious incompetence, and it will be used as an excuse to ramp up more security for future matches. Either way they come out on top.

     

    Because the club has backed us on this (and pretty much everything we have wanted to do) I'm inclined to go with the cop it sweet option. Whether we win or lose I only want to see cover to cover positive stories about our club in the media. Everyone knows that Rebecca Wilson and her ilk will be getting wet at the thought of being able to use the big stick to reem the A-league again. I don't want to see the haters have a ready made platform.

     

     

    Having said that, if our capos say we're leaving, I will be leaving.

    Prawny

    Posted

    From an outsider (and someone who has followed sfc to four states throughout the a-league and experienced all sorts of dickhead police)

     

    I think you guys are taking this the wrong way. I undertand you are hurt that the club has gone behind your back somewhat, but kicking up dust isn't going to fix it. Hatamoto are moronic at best, but this is a situation where I think you as the RBB need to swallow your pride and acccept it. Not trying to flare it up will show that you are there for the right reasons, and as a supporters group you are able to self police. Surely you can accept that this is a high risk match and the cove are able to self police to an extent. Remember that whilst you have good intentions as a supporters group, you have two matches under your belt (only one of which is a home game) and really you have to earn the trust for this stuff.

     

    Take it or leave it.

    Erebus

    Posted

    I reckon there might be Hatamoto stooges on this site not posting but just here to get info

     

    ****, don't they have anything better to do than sitting around reading the forums all day?

    I know huh!! :ninja:

    Davo

    Posted (edited)

    I reckon there might be Hatamoto stooges on this site not posting but just here to get info

     

    Absolutely. There are stories of Hatamoto stooges infiltrating supporter groups (Mack posted links in his initial post). It'd be very easy for them to come here and see what's going on. I'd imagine that'd officially be part of their job.

     

     

    From an outsider (and someone who has followed sfc to four states throughout the a-league and experienced all sorts of dickhead police)

     

    I think you guys are taking this the wrong way. I undertand you are hurt that the club has gone behind your back somewhat, but kicking up dust isn't going to fix it. Hatamoto are moronic at best, but this is a situation where I think you as the RBB need to swallow your pride and acccept it. Not trying to flare it up will show that you are there for the right reasons, and as a supporters group you are able to self police. Surely you can accept that this is a high risk match and the cove are able to self police to an extent. Remember that whilst you have good intentions as a supporters group, you have two matches under your belt (only one of which is a home game) and really you have to earn the trust for this stuff.

     

    Take it or leave it.

     

    There's a difference between 'kicking up dust' and trying to figure out a solution that best suits everyone. As Benched said in one of his earlier posts on this topic, Hatamoto didn't want to talk to the group, just said to go through the FFA. Of course we're going to be frustrated when they don't even want to talk about it and or give their side of the argument. If the RBB 'swallows their pride and accepts it' then they get stuck with what they're given. Nothing wrong with opening a dialogue and getting the best outcome for everyone but it's a two way street.

     

    Also the whole argument that the group has to prove themselves not to be a group of violent thugs it getting pretty annoying. It does come across as a little insulting that it's assumed the RBB is trouble until proven otherwise.

    Edited by Davo
    Erebus

    Posted

    So much for innocent until proven guilty huh?




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