A-League Expansion Thread V3

[mack]

I would assume they already have people they're talking to who are interested.. I'm not sure they'd pick Auckland of all places without that.

[GunnerWanderer]

Yeah think you are right Mack, it would be mighty ambitious to go anywhere without the right backing. 
 

Although I don’t agree with more teams coming in at least I guess it’s good to see the ambition. 

[Sithslayer1991]

The license fee really raises eyebrows (far out AUS $20-25million), but I think some of it is just to show you have the financial backing and to buy into the league ownership. Most of it will get refunded back to the expansions clubs, if we go by the previous expansion bids.

Looks like Canberra is essentially the same consortium that failed in the last expansion, Already rumours of Tom Rogic to come back as the Marquee. Whispers as well of Auckland that they tapped up Marco Rojas. I feel like this has been in the works for a long time in the background, its just both potential expansion getting their backers which for Canberra won't be an issue. If anything business are welcoming that club in that city regardless of the code because the stadium has been talked about to get an update. A Canberra team pushes that agenda.

I just wish to know more about Auckland and state of New Zealand football. You know hear their opinions and how they can make their impact on the league.

[Stokz]

To me - adding another NZ team is also a bit of FU to the 2nd division to **** up the pro/rel aspirations.

If Auckland/Wellington come last - do they go get relegated to the Australian 2nd division ? 

Also why would teams pay that sort of fee - given you could relegated, at best case in 10 years, or say 3-5 years worst case. 

[SBW]

I still don’t understand what the $25m licence fee would bring if those expansion clubs pay for it. The APL need to breakdown the reason for the $25m fee and justify the cost.

If we have NSD set up, its settled and we are open to pro/rel, the teams that get promoted to the A-league do they have to pay for the license fee to play in the A-League as well? Those NSD clubs are already going to pay $15m+ to the FA just to be part of the NSD

[Sithslayer1991]

Ok after reading a few articles apparently teams 15 & 16 are planned to come in season 2025/26 with a second Queensland team heavily favored for team 15, a 2nd team in WA, Wollongong, Tasmania and apparently even Darwin are being considered for team 16. Up to 13 places were considered and researched with Canberra and Auckland being the most beneficial for APL.  APL also haven't entirely ruled out promotion from the 2nd division for teams 15 and/or 16 but the timeline seems to favour one last ad hoc buy-in rather than promotion relegation.

It would have been the additional investment that comes with having a team in Auckland and the derby with Wellington to boost the A-league in NZ. Honesty doesn't bother me because it addresses the elephant in the room with the Nix as to what they bring and APL has double down on NZ. Another factor that would have been considered is NZ's guaranteed spot in Oceania for the World cup which again there would be a few dollars that couldn't be ignored by A-league.

The big question will be pro/rel if an NZ team gets relegated how the finances work with the NSD because of the additional cost that comes with International travel. AND if NSD is connected to the general pyramid of NPL what happens to the NZ team then. What happens when they win as well because they can never play Asian champions league. So many questions that probably never get answered until the scenario occurs.

[JustWandering]

3 hours ago, Sithslayer1991 said:

The big question will be pro/rel if an NZ team gets relegated how the finances work with the NSD because of the additional cost that comes with International travel. AND if NSD is connected to the general pyramid of NPL what happens to the NZ team then. What happens when they win as well because they can never play Asian champions league. So many questions that probably never get answered until the scenario occurs.

The question will be how much of their investment security will APL clubs be prepared to relinquish. I would hope that they are prepared to at least meet somewhere in the middle. Without question, the NSD would first have to solidify itself into a long term sustainable competition. I doubt the APL licence holders would ever agree to relegation below the second division into the amateur state leagues. Given that, a two tier licence system may be a way to make a full pyramid work.

When the NSD kicks off, we will at that point have two types of licences for Australian professional football clubs: 1) the gentleman's club, high roller, by invite only, "big" club licence distributed by the APL, and 2) the open to all, professionalised  "community" club licence distributed by the FA.

Assuming the APL licenced clubs agree to relegation into the NSD, this would allow for A League promotion places for FA licenced NSD clubs. To complete the pyramid, FA licenced clubs would also be eligible for relegation into the amateur state league competitions, making promotion places available into the NSD for aspirational state league based teams. These state league teams would have to hold an FA licence in order to be promoted.

This may sound like over-regulation, but it guarantees that clubs have the resources to maintain their existence at the level they find themselves at. It also avoids the need to incorporate NZ amateur football into the Australian system.

[theguyyouwishyouwere]

the licenses prices are absolute bullshit, putting clubs 25 million bucks behind from the start. why would anyone invest? 

[pseudonym]

30 minutes ago, theguyyouwishyouwere said:

the licenses prices are absolute bullshit, putting clubs 25 million bucks behind from the start. why would anyone invest? 

tbf, it's a safer option than most cryptocurrencies

They must be trying to trick the Saudis or UAE into paying over the rate

[Sithslayer1991]

Talk of  team 15 and 16 being from South East Queensland. You would be wary of a Gold Coast team being able to succeed, but a 2nd Brisbane team makes the most sense. The Roar need a real kick up the backside to get their **** in order. You are more likely to get more success from Wollongong (but it has to be the Wolves otherwise no one is coming) or Tasmania than Gold Coast in my opinion.

 

https://www.theroar.com.au/2023/03/18/a-leagues-set-to-expand-to-south-east-queensland-in-2025-26-is-gold-coast-brisbane-or-sunshine-coast-the-best-bet/

[StringerBellend]

On 08/03/2023 at 5:35 PM, MartinTyler said:

Worse than Lambert Park?

I love Lambert Park. Get a decent coffee their 

[Sithslayer1991]

Well some NZ perspective with Simon Hill as guest to speak about it. The host of the pod doesn't seem confident on what can happen with Auckland club there are too many uncertainties to know if it will be a success.

 

 

[Sithslayer1991]

So update now on NSD
https://www.footballaustralia.com.au/news/26-australian-clubs-advance-next-phase-national-second-tier-selection-process

26 teams. 

State / Territory (in alphabetical order)	Club (in alphabetical order)
Australian Capital Territory	Canberra Croatia FC Gungahlin United FC
NSW	APIA Leichhardt FC Fraser Park FC Marconi Stallions FC Rockdale Ilinden FC Sydney Olympic FC Sydney United 58 FC Sutherland Sharks FC / Cronulla Sharks Wollongong Wolves FC
Queensland	Brisbane City FC Brisbane United FC (Wynnum Wolves FC, Brisbane Strikers FC, Virginia United FC) Gold Coast Knights F.C. Gold Coast United FC Olympic FC Sunshine Coast FC
South Australia	Adelaide City FC Football South Australia
Tasmania	South Hobart FC
Victoria	Avondale FC Brunswick Juventus FC Green Gully SC Heidelberg United FC Melbourne Knights FC Preston Lions FC South Melbourne FC

[mack]

Blacktown City missing out is pretty big. They've been a regular top 5 club for 20+ years now. I imagine their ownership issues (iirc they had to sell their stadium & function centre) might be something to do with that.

The next part is going to be where the cash hits the road. Until now there's been little actual need to show up with the finances but now there is going to be a significant deposit involved from what I hear.

As for the clubs, I figure they'll do 16 teams if there's this much actual interest, made up of most of the NSW & Victorian clubs.

I think a 16 team lineup would look something like:

1. APIA
2. Marconi
3. Olympic
4. Sydney United
5. Sharks
6. Wollongong
7. Green Gully
8. Heidelberg
9. Knights
10. South Melbourne
11. Canberra Croatia
12. Adelaide City
13. Brisbane City
14. Brisbane Strikers (combined bid with Wynnum)
15. Open Slot
16. Open Slot

Then the last two clubs could be from South Hobart, the Football SA bid, one or both of the Gold Coast teams, Gungahlin from Canberra or one of the NSW/Vic teams that aren't already in.

[Sithslayer1991]

They never made a secret that it was always going to be East coast concentrated, for obvious reasons they are the only ones with stadium, money, player depth and fans.

Still weirded out by the champions league group format Johnson keeps pushing out there. Gonna be almost Serie C/D feel about it.

[mack]

Johnson wants that format because it's cheaper. 4 groups of 4 is 48 games and then 78 total if you play two legged knockouts, or 63 total for single legs knock outs.

You can also split those 4 groups into two "northern" and two "southern" groups. Example North: (APIA + Marconi + Brisbane + Wollongong), (Olympic + SU + Sharks + Strikers) South: (Canberra + Knights + Adelaide + Hobart), (Gully + Heidelberg + SMFC + Adelaide 2) and even keep that split up for the first knock out stage to reduce travel costs by limiting flights and ensure you still have teams from both 'halves' in the Semi-Final. A Sydney team might have one away flight in the group stage, get another Sydney team in the R16 and another in the R8 before finally having a 2nd & 3rd away flight for the Semi-Final & Final. The worst case would be Hobart flying to 3 group stage games and potentially 4 knockout games.

A 16 team home-away format with no geographic distinctions is 240 games with teams flying all over the country. Best case (in that 16 team league above with Hobart + Adelaide 2/Gold Coast) would be a Sydney team who will still need to fly to 9 away games per season. Worst case would be Hobart who would have to fly to 15 away games game.

[Sithslayer1991]

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/the-plan-to-embrace-promotion-and-relegation-in-the-a-league-20230516-p5d8qj.html

Article is a lot to pack in so I haven't copied it this time.

Very quickly. FFA are looking at a J-league inspired model for pro/rel towards the APL. Essentially promote teams that meet guidelines financially and other off field stability criteria. 

"From there, teams would be able to go up into A1 or down to A2, but they would be protected from relegation below A2, while second division teams which meet the criteria would continue to be promoted into A2 – albeit in a staggered fashion, since the A-League is played over summer and the second division is to be played through the winter, making a direct promotion-relegation system in line with European tradition unachievable."

 

It just the proposed idea from FFA to APL.

[pseudonym]

by the looks of that, it would be 28 round competition

Home/Away against the 9 teams of the league your team is in plus a game against each of the 10 teams from the other league

Would guarantee at least one derby a season to the TV networks (e.g. CCM in A1 plays Jets in A2)

[Stokz]

I dont get this part 

So you have A1 / A2 - if they add another 4 clubs via license thats 16 a-league clubs

So essentially leaves it up to 4 clubs to promoted via NSD.

Then it becomes closed again with NSD? 

Maybe 1 a year gets promoted after NSD establishment phase (2-3 years).

Then its getting close to that 2034 date, which is probably when pyramid pro/rel will only happen. 

 

[Sithslayer1991]

10 minutes ago, Stokz said:

I dont get this part 

So you have A1 / A2 - if they add another 4 clubs via license thats 16 a-league clubs

So essentially leaves it up to 4 clubs to promoted via NSD.

Then it becomes closed again with NSD? 

Maybe 1 a year gets promoted after NSD establishment phase (2-3 years).

Then its getting close to that 2034 date, which is probably when pyramid pro/rel will only happen. 

 

Its only an idea. Vince Rugari went more in depth and explained the article on Global Game with Simon Hill and Alex Brosque.

He clearly states FFA didn't want the story to go out. Its still in it early initial phases the APL was yet to respond to it, response around the story has generally been positive because it gets us closer to pro-rel however conservative the initial outlook is. But I think the idea is once it gets to 20 teams they will split but its still open for promotion from NSD to A2 so long as their "criteria" has been met. If successful you can increase the teams indefinitely. 

 

[Stokz]

27 minutes ago, Sithslayer1991 said:

Its only an idea. Vince Rugari went more in depth and explained the article on Global Game with Simon Hill and Alex Brosque.

He clearly states FFA didn't want the story to go out. Its still in it early initial phases the APL was yet to respond to it, response around the story has generally been positive because it gets us closer to pro-rel however conservative the initial outlook is. But I think the idea is once it gets to 20 teams they will split but its still open for promotion from NSD to A2 so long as their "criteria" has been met. If successful you can increase the teams indefinitely. 

 

Ah ok - i thought capped at 20.

Increasing teams in this scenario, would be ok compromise.

[Stokz]

Does anyone know if A2 will require grass only pitches? 

I heard some rumours that they don't want synthetic pitches, which will create problems for a lot of NPL teams particularly in NSW.

Not sure how true it is. 

[Sithslayer1991]

IDK haven't heard anything. Surely that isn't a requirement. 

[mack]

The PFA will demand it but I don't think it's possible to make it a requirement.

[Sithslayer1991]

ESPN expansion story.

 

https://www.espn.com.au/football/story/_/id/37843190

[SBW]

and poor McPete is about to burst his vein. 

 

 

 

[Sithslayer1991]

17 hours ago, SBW said:

and poor McPete is about to burst his vein. 

 

 

 

Still trying to figure out what is going on?

I understand there is contention on $500,000 deposit non refundable for the NSD.

So is it the money that is the issue? The very thing the NPL clubs said they could raise to go pro? Or is FFA having other demands that cannot be met by NPL clubs?

[SBW]

Just now, Sithslayer1991 said:

Still trying to figure out what is going on?

I understand there is contention on $500,000 deposit non refundable for the NSD.

So is it the money that is the issue? The very thing the NPL clubs said they could raise to go pro? Or is FFA having other demands that cannot be met by NPL clubs?

From what I am reading, FA are asking the interested clubs that they pay a non-refundable $500k to the FA and the clubs are refusing to pay such money if they are not guaranteed a place in the NSD.

[mack]

Do they think the FA were going to run it out of the goodness of their hearts?

I reckon it's less about FA making money than simply a way to weed out the non-serious and poorly run clubs. Giving them enough rope "you've been asking for this for a decade, now you have it, time to show your hand".

Supposedly Melb Knights and Sydney United both either withdrew or were failed on the FA criteria.

The ex-NSL clubs have been saying for 20 years that the A-League is ****, rigged, badly run, racist against the ethnic clubs, with bad recycled players because they're biased against youth products that don't come from AL junior setups, waste of money and they could produce better players, draw bigger crowds & audiences while spending less cash, and now the first time they actually have to stump up what should be a relatively small amount of cash for these supposed "sleeping giants" with "massive community support" who have been waiting 20 years for this opportunity they are baulking.

[Sithslayer1991]

Lol ok so I wasn't the only one thinking these clubs needed to prove they can actually raise the money required to go pro.

I was optimist really beleived they wouldnt baulk at the money but now they all cry foul when its time.