The Refereeing Thread

[ptwsw]

Two words sum it up for me tonight's on refereeing performance;

EMBARASSING........PATHETIC

[DinoPresinger]

I think we need to lay off the refs. People under pressure make bad decisions and at the end of the day as long as it's clearly not match fixing it all evens out

[Davo]

The problem is if we lay off the refs then what we're getting becomes the acceptable standard. They need to be criticised but in the context that the FFA need to do more to make them better, rather than blame the individuals.

[Gazmon]

It's ego,

lack of depth and quality from the state leagues putting the pressure on the A-league guys.

They come to Pirtek thinking, 

"I can out referee this intimidating atmosphere, I'm not giving in to this crowd" 

 

Not far off to be honest. Many referees, even subconsciously, will try and 'referee' their way through the pressure that the crowd puts on you. You'd start thinking that by giving fouls against the home team that it shows you're not being intimidated. But, they'd never admit that, of course.

 

You're not wrong with the go thing. Ben W does have a massive ego, just meet the bloke and you'll see that. He's the Gilderoy Lockhart of the referee world.

 

Not sure what it's like now but there was little to no connection between national league and state league. You did well at state league and you got picked for a national panel - that was it. But, in the state leagues all referees were put into divisions (4 from memory) and depending on your results/inspections you'd either go up or down a 'panel'. Certain panels did certain games. But, there was no consistency with those at the top of the 1st panel being looked at for A-League, etc. That said, some that got good marks were not the best referee. The marking system is very ambiguous: was the game easy because you handled it well, so you're score was lower because it was deemed 'easy'.

 

 

I think we need to lay off the refs. People under pressure make bad decisions and at the end of the day as long as it's clearly not match fixing it all evens out

 

It's amazing how often football just levels itself out. Also, I often find the crowd at home games going off and I just quietly sit there and go "referee got it right" and shrug. It's hard to switch off that part of the brain sometimes and let the fan take over.

 

 

I refereed for a few years in Brisbane as a younger man, and I generally don't like bagging a referee. There's so much going on in the the thick of the game that we just don't see from the sideline, and I reckon you need to have refereed for a season or two before you really understand how much the angles you run on the field affect what you see on the pitch (and let's face it, those of use in the stands are outrageously biased pricks one way or the other, and that's just part of our charm)

 

Tonight's performance though... 

 

I would love a considered and balanced view of someone like Gazmon who has spent a lot longer in the middle than I did. I'll also happily fess up that I was a lot better on the line than in the middle but I still found tonight hard to fathom.

 

I normally like Shaun as a referee. Tonight though, his softly-softly and play on approach didn't work. With two teams that are technically very good and want to keep a certain flow you need to punish the smaller fouls and issue cards early to try and curb the 'technical' fouls to slow teams up and break up the flow. He kept with the "let's just keep playing lads" attitude, which might be fine for Perth v Newcastle, but not for two very good (technically) teams.

 

FWIW I was FAR better on the line than the middle, but I still did quite well in the centre, just found myself doing more lines than centres at the national level. Fourth official jobs are always fun when you've got people like Muscat around...

[pushiepedlar]

I watched the replay when I got home to see just how bad it was, and ended up thinking that on TV it wasn't as bad as at the game. 25 minutes in to the game fouls committed were WSW 3 and MC 2 but come half time it was 10-3. in that 20 minutes he'd wave play on for a foul on us but mere seconds later award the free kick to them for an almost identical incident. Thats what got us fired up. 

 

In the end he'd sent one of them off, and in reality Bridge could've suffered the same fate. He was already on a yellow when he raised a foot to challenge Malik. The only reason he didn't get a yellow, i believe, is that he was already on one. Then the ref forgot that Caceres was already on one before readily brandishing it when he was a little late with his challenge. (i'll admit i had forgotten that too) so when everyone around was yelling at him to get off my reaction was that it wasn't a red card challenge.  

 

Anyway at the game i was livid, it was one of the few time i got involved in the ref booing. Once i'd watched the game i felt bad that i had. Even though he missed some obvious things. 

[Prydzopolis]

Sorry pushie, I disagree. Last sentence first paragraph is why he pissed us off & I think he deserved the boo's, it was a pretty horrendous performance. Especially the first half, as highlighted above, it was as if he was attempting not to give in to the crowd pressure & as a result was making constant poor decisions.

 

On the Bridge high foot challenge, I think he made a good call on not awarding a second yellow. Apart from the first bad tackle (which was a yellow) he pretty much had made no other fouls before the high foot. Yes he was careless but it wasn't reckless or a use of excessive force so I think it was a good call,

 

On the Caceres challenge it was more reckless foul so deserving of a second yellow (the first bridge yellow challenge was closer to excessive force especially if he had made contact anywhere but the toe/end of the foot). Even if he had forgot that he was already on a yellow, it was deserving of a yellow on its own right. There is nothing in the laws of the game that suggests that you shouldn't award a second yellow for two deserving fouls, each foul & punishment should be judged on its own merits. I agree that you shouldn't hand out cards like candy & especially in the case of a second yellow, try to avoid giving it if it's a soft foul but in Careres case it was warranted.

 

Don't feel bad you gave it to the referee, it was a poor performance.

[tardotz]

So apparently this was Ben Williams first game since the two penalty disgrace.

Looks like the time off did not effect his level of being one of the worst in the A leugue.... And that's not easy

[Prydzopolis]

So apparently this was Ben Williams first game since the two penalty disgrace.

Looks like the time off did not effect his level of being one of the worst in the A leugue.... And that's not easy

Can't they just give him a low profile game? Give him a central coast or Wellington game.

 

Some of the decisions that baffled me:

- the yellow for Jameison for moving the shaving cream, I can understand if he moved the ball but the cream?

- After Mitch Nichols came off after twisting his ankle, Willians wouldn't allow him back on

- I couldn't quite understand how he deemed some challenges yellow & others not. For example, Nichols got clattered on the edge of the box but was just given a foul & 10 minutes later Neville got a yellow for the exact same foul. Other times I couldn't figure out how our players escaped getting a yellow

- Would he have given Alberto a red if Berisha hadn't gone up to the referee that he had been hit in the face?

 

Just a couple off the top of my head, frustrating but not as bad as the guy we had last week. Another week where the referee dominates the match discussion.

[tuco]

one thing i dont understand in the a-league is the handball decisions and yellow cards.

in italy and spain it's basically automatic that a player gets a yellow when a handball stops the progress of an attack.

 

in the games here nothing gets called, like the broxham handball that i saw a few hours ago.

 

can anyone here clarify this rule for me?

surely this is one rule that the moron a-league refs cant stuff up!

[Prydzopolis]

one thing i dont understand in the a-league is the handball decisions and yellow cards.

in italy and spain it's basically automatic that a player gets a yellow when a handball stops the progress of an attack.

 

in the games here nothing gets called, like the broxham handball that i saw a few hours ago.

 

can anyone here clarify this rule for me?

surely this is one rule that the moron a-league refs cant stuff up!

We've just recently debated this point but I can summarise it for you:

- The laws state that the handball must be deliberate for it to be a foul

- Referees all over the world seem to call a foul if the ball hits the hand no matter if it is deliberate or not. People use terms such as natural position or hand to ball or ball to hand but it shouldn't be a consideration (theoretically)

- I'm not sure whether top level referees get some sort of specific advice on how to deal with handballs outside the laws & its interpretations but that's how I see it.

[SomeGuy1977]

 

So apparently this was Ben Williams first game since the two penalty disgrace.

Looks like the time off did not effect his level of being one of the worst in the A leugue.... And that's not easy

Can't they just give him a low profile game? Give him a central coast or Wellington game.

Some of the decisions that baffled me:

- the yellow for Jameison for moving the shaving cream, I can understand if he moved the ball but the cream?

- After Mitch Nichols came off after twisting his ankle, Willians wouldn't allow him back on

- I couldn't quite understand how he deemed some challenges yellow & others not. For example, Nichols got clattered on the edge of the box but was just given a foul & 10 minutes later Neville got a yellow for the exact same foul. Other times I couldn't figure out how our players escaped getting a yellow

- Would he have given Alberto a red if Berisha hadn't gone up to the referee that he had been hit in the face?

Just a couple off the top of my head, frustrating but not as bad as the guy we had last week. Another week where the referee dominates the match discussion.

I'm pretty sure Jamo got his card for blowing up when Williams put a second mountain of cream in front of the ball. He was pretty clear that it p**sed him off and Williams gave him the card.

[tuco]

 

one thing i dont understand in the a-league is the handball decisions and yellow cards.

in italy and spain it's basically automatic that a player gets a yellow when a handball stops the progress of an attack.

 

in the games here nothing gets called, like the broxham handball that i saw a few hours ago.

 

can anyone here clarify this rule for me?

surely this is one rule that the moron a-league refs cant stuff up!

We've just recently debated this point but I can summarise it for you:

- The laws state that the handball must be deliberate for it to be a foul

- Referees all over the world seem to call a foul if the ball hits the hand no matter if it is deliberate or not. People use terms such as natural position or hand to ball or ball to hand but it shouldn't be a consideration (theoretically)

- I'm not sure whether top level referees get some sort of specific advice on how to deal with handballs outside the laws & its interpretations but that's how I see it.

 

 

thanks for that prydz, but i was specifically asking about the yellow card rule in relation to handballs.

i know there are a few refs on the forum, was wondering if that was part of the training/coaching of refs, or if they just let them interpret it as they see fit.

 

for example it's generally a given that if an outfield player handballs on the goal line it's an automatic red card (denial of a goal scoring opportunity).

handballs that stop the attacking play should be deemed as a professional foul, thus a yellow. However refs don't give cards automatically in the a-league.

[Prydzopolis]

I'm pretty sure Jamo got his card for blowing up when Williams put a second mountain of cream in front of the ball. He was pretty clear that it p**sed him off and Williams gave him the card.

Right so it was dissent for moving the cream? Or dissent at Williams for putting more cream down?

 

If Williams used a bit of common sense it wouldn't have blown up (ie he wasn't moving the ball just the excess foam)

[smp]

 

I'm pretty sure Jamo got his card for blowing up when Williams put a second mountain of cream in front of the ball. He was pretty clear that it p**sed him off and Williams gave him the card.

Right so it was dissent for moving the cream? Or dissent at Williams for putting more cream down?

If Williams used a bit of common sense it wouldn't have blown up (ie he wasn't moving the ball just the excess foam)

Jamo throws his arms out wide, clearly saying "For ****'s sake!â€. That's what the card is for, I'd say.

[Nnnnnathan12]

The sending off was absolutely ridiculous, 
It was something that I would expect from a 16 year old refereeing under 12s and he got excited that it was his first ever send off.

For Williams to stand there in front of 10 players and hand out a red card was completely bullshit and unprofessional.
Absolutely pathetic.

Wait until the players calm down and seperate, and then call Alberto and Topor-Stanley out to you and then send him off.
Don't stand there like a dickhead and just start showing a red card to everyone....

[Prydzopolis]

 

 

I'm pretty sure Jamo got his card for blowing up when Williams put a second mountain of cream in front of the ball. He was pretty clear that it p**sed him off and Williams gave him the card.

Right so it was dissent for moving the cream? Or dissent at Williams for putting more cream down?

If Williams used a bit of common sense it wouldn't have blown up (ie he wasn't moving the ball just the excess foam)

Jamo throws his arms out wide, clearly saying "For ****'s sake!â€. That's what the card is for, I'd say.

Right, just imagine if he showed a card to every player who swore at him

The sending off was absolutely ridiculous,

It was something that I would expect from a 16 year old refereeing under 12s and he got excited that it was his first ever send off.

For Williams to stand there in front of 10 players and hand out a red card was completely bullshit and unprofessional.

Absolutely pathetic.

Wait until the players calm down and seperate, and then call Alberto and Topor-Stanley out to you and then send him off.

Don't stand there like a dickhead and just start showing a red card to everyone....

Had to laugh at that, the camera showing Santa walking off the field and I thought "typical Santa, has he got a red for a little nibble?". Nek minnit he is getting a drink from the bench & Williams had to go over to tell Alberto he had sent him off

 

My question to you though, if you weren't a WSW fan with plenty of bias would you still have the same opinion?

[Unlimited]

The sending off was absolutely ridiculous, 

It was something that I would expect from a 16 year old refereeing under 12s and he got excited that it was his first ever send off.

 

For Williams to stand there in front of 10 players and hand out a red card was completely bullshit and unprofessional.

Absolutely pathetic.

 

Wait until the players calm down and seperate, and then call Alberto and Topor-Stanley out to you and then send him off.

Don't stand there like a dickhead and just start showing a red card to everyone....

 

yeah i had something like that happen to me last season

 

but stupid me goes in to help separate the players (i didn't run in with my red card or anything)

 

because i do that, someone decides to take a cheap shot out of my view and i'm like "uhhhhhh ??????" so... couldn't red card that person

 

 

Moral of the story: don't run into an existing melee between players... like ever

 

Before it starts, yes - see if you can get your red card in, but once it started... yeah. That's why I thought it was a bit odd that he ran in with the card, especially on the side of the assistant because that meant the other side of the melee wasn't in view of the referee which may have problems in itself if someone decides to take a cheap shot

[Nnnnnathan12]

Best thing to do in those situations is just let the players deal with it themselves, 
They'll eventually work it out and all you need to do is to just stand back, watch and observe and take a mental note of which players need to be sanctioned.

Talk to your assistant first and then take the appropriate action.


And yes Prydz my opinion of the situation would be the same if he sent Berisha off instead because Williams made himself look like a complete inexperienced tool

[West13]

It was pur game vs adelaide that got him dropped.

He was gagging to show us who is boss.

[Zelinsky]

Didn't we see another stellar performance of him a couple of weeks ago in Gosford?

[Prydzopolis]

Best thing to do in those situations is just let the players deal with it themselves, 

They'll eventually work it out and all you need to do is to just stand back, watch and observe and take a mental note of which players need to be sanctioned.

Talk to your assistant first and then take the appropriate action.

And yes Prydz my opinion of the situation would be the same if he sent Berisha off instead because Williams made himself look like a complete inexperienced tool

Fair enough, it reminds me of the incident that happened in the Roar vs CCM game where the last man went through the roar player to get the ball. It was interesting that the CCM fans were in uproar over the red card because he touched the ball first (you didn't notice how he went straight through the player?).

 

One particular fan had a very neutral non biased& well informed opinion/view of an incident that happened to us a number of weeks ago but seemed ropable with that decision yesterday & unable to see reason. Just making sure you weren't making a similar mistake.

[rcfinc]

 

 

I'm pretty sure Jamo got his card for blowing up when Williams put a second mountain of cream in front of the ball. He was pretty clear that it p**sed him off and Williams gave him the card.

Right so it was dissent for moving the cream? Or dissent at Williams for putting more cream down?

If Williams used a bit of common sense it wouldn't have blown up (ie he wasn't moving the ball just the excess foam)

Jamo throws his arms out wide, clearly saying "For ****'s sake!â€. That's what the card is for, I'd say.

 

I agree re the dissent ... I was about 30m directly in front of what happened and Jamison clearly spoke back to him.  But would a more mature ref just let it go as he had contributed to the situation?  I think yes ... have a talk ... defuse the situation ... and get him to take the kick.

[HillsPanther]

You could see in the replay that the idiot Williams did it specifically to piss Jamison off. He was itching to card the wanderers as pay back for his embarisment from the earlier game.

[SomeGuy1977]

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure Jamo got his card for blowing up when Williams put a second mountain of cream in front of the ball. He was pretty clear that it p**sed him off and Williams gave him the card.

 

Right so it was dissent for moving the cream? Or dissent at Williams for putting more cream down?

If Williams used a bit of common sense it wouldn't have blown up (ie he wasn't moving the ball just the excess foam)

Jamo throws his arms out wide, clearly saying "For ****'s sake!â€. That's what the card is for, I'd say.

I agree re the dissent ... I was about 30m directly in front of what happened and Jamison clearly spoke back to him.  But would a more mature ref just let it go as he had contributed to the situation?  I think yes ... have a talk ... defuse the situation ... and get him to take the kick.

Unfortunately, he had Williams

[Prydzopolis]

You could see in the replay that the idiot Williams did it specifically to piss Jamison off. He was itching to card the wanderers as pay back for his embarisment from the earlier game.

Piss him off? I saw it more as a power play where he wanted to show who was boss & who was in charge.

[luisenrique]

The Jamo thing was bizarre...how can you book a guy for complaining that YOU have put shaving cream in the way of the ball?? And then seconds later Broxham was blowing up at the lino and got nothing!

[Edinburgh]

 

You could see in the replay that the idiot Williams did it specifically to piss Jamison off. He was itching to card the wanderers as pay back for his embarisment from the earlier game.

Piss him off? I saw it more as a power play where he wanted to show who was boss & who was in charge.

On this occasion amounts to the same thing!

[mack]

Would like to see Strebre explain how despite looking directly at the players coming into the box and 'pointing' which seems to be a warning not to encroach, that after players from both sides have encroached he didn't order a retake.

 

[Alexander]

Thoughts on the high boot suggestion by Perth on Santa's goal?

[Nnnnnathan12]

Thoughts on the high boot suggestion by Perth on Santa's goal?

Playing in a dangerous manner,

That's the wording in the laws of the game.

 

Just because a players foot is high, doesn't make it a free kick