Prydzopolis Posted March 2, 2014 Posted March 2, 2014 There was one from each team. Naturally, there is no moral outrage (as it should be), because the media reaction is non-existent. Again, people don't have an issue with flares if there is no punishment. The issue is with the punishments handed out by the governing bodies The FFA made a big call, three points suspended sentence if any further anti-social behavior. We can now all see that this was a bluff by the FFA hoping that this would discourage fans from letting of flares and it hasn't worked. In the past month we have seen flares from Adelaide, glory, heart, esfc, wsw and now MV + heart. What do they do? Do they fine clubs when really most of the clubs would need to borrow money from the FFA to pay for the fines? Do they deduct points, but what if that led to a legal challenge and that would just be messy! Unfortunately we are stuck in a circular argument. You are saying that if no punishment people don't care about flares but I am saying they are illegal and the FFA/AFC have reacted so we can't talk about what if there was no punishment. The landscape has changed, with a points deduction and afc fine hanging over our head we can no longer argue your point of view. This situation has gotten out of control now, why are we singled out by the FFA over wednesday night but other clubs have been fighting and letting off flares and getting away with it. Personally I believe that people are just hoping that if the media be quiet and nobody discussed it that the issue will just go away.
Prydzopolis Posted March 2, 2014 Posted March 2, 2014 Anyone else spot a flare in the Melbourne derby last night? There was one from each team. Naturally, there is no moral outrage (as it should be), because the media reaction is non-existent. Again, people don't have an issue with flares if there is no punishment. The issue is with the punishments handed out by the governing bodies. If the FFA was offered a $50M, 2 year contract by a German sports channel tomorrow to broadcast the A-League and they requested more pyro, you can be sure that pyro punishments would cease tomorrow. Is a contract that requires the delivery of illegal activities even legal? In accepting an inducement to turn a blind eye to an illegal activity would the FFA officials open themselves up to charges of corruption? Certainly it would be unethical. Agree with you there, even for a ridiculous amount of money I can't see the FFA accepting a deal that would endorse behavior they are trying to stamp out of the game. I guess with a $50m war chest they could fight the law and change it to make it legal to set off flares in a certain environment.
wendybr Posted March 2, 2014 Posted March 2, 2014 This situation has gotten out of control now, why are we singled out by the FFA over wednesday night but other clubs have been fighting and letting off flares and getting away with it. Personally I believe that people are just hoping that if the media be quiet and nobody discussed it that the issue will just go away. As I understand it, the AUD $39,000 fine is by the AFC...not the FFA.. Regarding the three point deduction- if they went ahead and deducted every team 3 points who had let off flares, who would be left without the deduction? Roar, the Nix and the Jets? I can understand why WSW and the Victory were the only teams the threat of deducted points was directed at ...sadly, I can understand. The mistake they made was not making it a threat against all teams. I don't agree with it by the way. It's not a good option at all, as it punishes everyone for the misdemeanours of the few. But if they don't follow through, they do create a tricky situation for themselves - as any parent (or teacher) would know...hollow threats etc. The only alternative is to load active support areas with heavy security - punishment for the whole group again, unfortunately.
Stokz Posted March 2, 2014 Posted March 2, 2014 I enjoy a nice flare show every now and then, but I think we tend to go overboard. The other clubs usually let 1 or max 2 flares. We on the other hand let 7-10 flares off. We always gotta take it to the next level. It's looks sick, I agree but given the sanctions it should not happen. It's not worth it. At least wait for semis and gf before more pyro so the points aren't an issue any more. PieceBombs 1
wendybr Posted March 2, 2014 Posted March 2, 2014 Anyone else spot a flare in the Melbourne derby last night? There was one from each team. Naturally, there is no moral outrage (as it should be), because the media reaction is non-existent. Again, people don't have an issue with flares if there is no punishment. The issue is with the punishments handed out by the governing bodies. If the FFA was offered a $50M, 2 year contract by a German sports channel tomorrow to broadcast the A-League and they requested more pyro, you can be sure that pyro punishments would cease tomorrow. Is a contract that requires the delivery of illegal activities even legal? In accepting an inducement to turn a blind eye to an illegal activity would the FFA officials open themselves up to charges of corruption? Certainly it would be unethical. Agree with you there, even for a ridiculous amount of money I can't see the FFA accepting a deal that would endorse behavior they are trying to stamp out of the game. I guess with a $50m war chest they could fight the law and change it to make it legal to set off flares in a certain environment. It's illegal for the obvious reason that it has the potential to harm people. No-one can guarantee that someone won't be harmed in a range of ways. And who would be facing the legal costs when a person injured by "pyro" takes the obvious course of action and sues- the club?...the stadium?...the FFA? etc. Breach of Duty of Care etc I would imagine. Insurance costs.... Would be a legal minefield. Prydzopolis 1
Prydzopolis Posted March 2, 2014 Posted March 2, 2014 As I understand it, the AUD $39,000 fine is by the AFC...not the FFA.. I know the fine wasn't by them but it was the clubs response but the response by the FFA was my issue! Did you see the response from the club, it was a combined response from the club (owned by the FFA), FFA and police. A lot stronger than we have seen by other clubs that have had flares set off over the past month. Regarding the three point deduction- if they went ahead and deducted every team 3 points who had let off flares, who would be left without the deduction? Well if this was there strategy they can't just go back on it and say oh well that failed. How poorly thought through was this strategy, people should be sacked for how badly this has gone! Shame on you FFA! I can understand why WSW and the Victory were the only teams the threat of deducted points was directed at ...sadly, I can understand. It was due to the fight, but as per the above, they said a points deduction would happen if any anti-social behavior but now they aren't following through with it? Pathetic! The mistake they made was not making it a threat against all teams. I don't agree with it by the way. It's not a good option at all, as it punishes everyone for the misdemeanours of the few. But if they don't follow through, they do create a tricky situation for themselves - as any parent (or teacher) would know...hollow threats etc. +1
rodz7 Posted March 2, 2014 Posted March 2, 2014 @wendybr I think the Brisbane and Central Coast 'pyro' looks very plastic and 'Americanised'. I'm not 100% clear on the Dutch system but they allow pyro for training sessions, and some matches the stadiums sell pyro to fans. Maybe restricting the use and sale to trained handlers who are allowed to operate in "safe zones" would ensure safety. However, there has to be definite evidence that this won't turn away sponsors and TV deals before the FFA considers this. I see this discussion very similar to the legalisation of drugs. No matter the laws, people will always risk it for that 'fix'. Both have potential to hurt the user and those around them. Even if pyro was legalised, I probably wouldn't rip because of the stigma attached and that I may jeopardise my professional career if an employer did not like it. In an environment where people feel safe and welcome pyro, it adds to the atmosphere. I can understand people fear pyro, but with anything, education is the key. PieceBombs 1
West13 Posted March 2, 2014 Posted March 2, 2014 (edited) My missus conversation with guy at BCF just then when buying ponchos. Guy - ponchos for today? Missus - yep going to the game. Guy - which game? Missus - Wanderers. Guy - need some flares to take with you? Missus - nah I still want to go watch. Everyone laughed Its an association... Edited March 2, 2014 by West13 essdub 1
bombagol Posted March 2, 2014 Posted March 2, 2014 I enjoy a nice flare show every now and then, but I think we tend to go overboard. The other clubs usually let 1 or max 2 flares. We on the other hand let 7-10 flares off. We always gotta take it to the next level. It's looks sick, I agree but given the sanctions it should not happen. It's not worth it. At least wait for semis and gf before more pyro so the points aren't an issue any more. I agreed with what you've said above, except for your last line. And the reason for that is in your second last line: "... given the sanctions it should not happen. It's not worth it." Exactly. If the pyro was done in the semi or the gf, we'd just get the points deduction given to us the next season. So it's back to your previous conclusion: "It's not worth it." You wouldn't want to start the next season with -3 points!
Tigers Posted March 2, 2014 Posted March 2, 2014 Because it is a joke?? So where do you guys see this situation heading?? Will it honestly take CCTVs galore, Hatamoto galore, cops galore, and maybe members of the RBB actually getting to the point of dobbing in people that they see/suspect of using "pyro" and , over time, some/many /all of the "pyro" supporters getting caught and banned and charged before it ends. Or there is no end? This is something that you forsee as being an ongoing and indefinite battle (again- I know that anyone who replies to this can only speak for himself/herself, as I try to do ) my post is way too long but here it is anyway... interesting that Legionista liked your post too even tho we're at different opinions on this issue. i think you're spot on wendybr. imo the only way people will stop lighting flares is: -positive peer pressure -heavy fines and/or jail sentences for people who light flares at sporting events -if a flare causes a large fire, or serious injury or death to a person (which leads to the above 2) organised fireworks, cannons(lol) do nothing to satisfy the people who light flares. yes, they think it would be a joke. they need to be able to do it themselves. imo they do it because they think it's cool (it's fire, dangerous, the smoke looks cool, it's illegal blah blah), they do it for their peers. if their peers thought it was a wankerish thing to do they wouldn't do it. even organised flare displays by professional pyro people would not be enough(and the authorities would never allow it in a million years). i don't know exactly when this issue started in australia but it would have been going on for 30+(?) years and i don't know if it's getting any worse but it sure isn't any better. i don't see any end in sight and football will continue to shoot itself in the foot for many years to come. positive peer pressure could be things like the leaders really being opposed to flares instead of tolerating them and the stopping of pics of flares on active support official websites and social media pages, things like that. i can't see this happening unless the people who support or tolerate flares stop coming to games (meaning that for the people who want to light flares their peers are no longer there). the glorifying of flares through pictures or peers just drags in the so-called blow-ins. then if the RBB blame the flares on blow-ins or say they shouldn't be punished for the actions of a few, then one question i would like the RBB leaders to ask themselves is what are the reasons that they think incites people to light flares in the RBB area? i'm not sure but people in victoria or nsw who get found guilty of lighting flares for the first time just get a penalty notice or something eg a fine but no conviction. can someone who knows better correct me if i'm wrong? it's just like cricket (and other sports) in the 1980's where there were pitch invaders/streakers almost every game, it wasn't until they brought in $5000 fines that the incidents decreased. the other way is not something we want to think about, but if a flare causes a large fire, or serious injury or death to a person then the authorities would come down so hard that going to the football for everyone would never be the same again. something like that would cause the flares to stop. we could then end up like someone was saying in america at sporting events there is full on security and metal detectors and if you were caught with a flare you'd be straight off to jail. but the question as to why people break the law or rules and feel like they should be able to do whatever they want is a society issue, obviously not just a RBB or RBB leaders issue. however this is an issue that is directly affecting OUR club and australian football in general that we love, so fairly or unfairly the focus is going to be towards the RBB. it seems to me that lighting flares is just a sense of belonging to a group and doing something that think is cool and that they enjoy. no different to any other people or groups it's just that this involves breaking the law. you could google something like facebook terrace culture or casual culture. Prydzopolis 1
Pablo Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 (Cross posted, with no apologies): Seems to be much finger pointing, blame shifting, denial, stereotyping, naivety, etc around these ongoing issues. Thankfully, there have also been very many balanced perspectives and acknowledgement of problems which need to be addressed and fixed. It's just not productive to claim that active supporters are hard done by in terms of the most recent decision by FFA and our club with police, security and stadium management. Flares and other related devices are not acceptable at games.....full stop. The internal "saboteurs" who have continued with their puerile behaviours need to grow up and become responsible, or otherwise not come to WSW games, home or away. I hope the RBB leadership takes the appropriate next steps to evolve the active support without the spectre of flares hanging over the club and its supporters. (This includes not allowing this Forum to be used to celebrate or promote use of flares etc) For now and into the future, we need need collectively to stay true and united, based upon unconditional support for WSW. No more excuses, let's move forward having become wiser from important lessons about acceptable behaviour on the terraces. Erdz and Prydzopolis 2
NeverMind Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 what would the RBB rather have a pull over Tifo or a couple of flares from time to time???? The inner crew know who these people are... The RBB core need to unite and say no to flares, i would rather have a new TIFO every home game then a flare If the Core of RBB dont say no to flares, then you can suck up the punishment... I've been in the RBB from game 1 and much prefer a TIFO to a flare Carns, Pablo and Prydzopolis 3
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